Session is finished.
A few moments to So during the mid 1980's, two brothers approached miami is development office to discuss a suitable tribute to their parents who sacrifices made it possible for their sons to attend Miami during the years of depression.
These brothers were the Reverend Edward Junior, prominent date and cleared human.
And Professor Harris, who for many years taught at Miami is Department of Management.
The result of these conversations was the Edward a.
Puff senior and Edith cocked my lecture.
And the study of Christianity, which has enabled the Department of Comparative Religion at my amine verse.
Today to host a long series of eminent scholars as speakers.
Before introducing this year's off lecture.
I'd like to pause to acknowledge that there are members of the family here with us today.
Peru and with Steve Dana are here.
I'm not sure if others are as well, but if you are shout out to you who have helped to make this occasion possible.
And so please give them around the applause for supporting, continuing to support this this effort.
So I'd like to introduce our speaker this evening.
Professor of theology and pastoral care, and chair and divinity and Religious Studies at the University of Aberdeen for more than a decade, he worked as a registered mental health nurse.
He also worked for a number of years, is a hospital and community health mental health, community.
Pretty mental health Chaplin, alongside of people with severe mental health challenges who are moving from the hospital into the community.
In 2004, he founded the University of Aberdeen center for spirituality, health and disability.
He has published widely within the area of mental health, dementia, disability theology.
Spirituality, and health care.
Qualitative research and pastoral care is the author of a number of monographs, including becoming friends of time, disability time fullness, and gentle discipleship, which came out from dealer.
In 2017, his book, Finding Jesus in this form, the spiritual lives of people with mental I'll challenges here, admins in 20212022, others gates Book Prize.
And his book, dementia living in the memories of God from 2012 was awarded the Archbishop of Canterbury is Renzi Prize for Theological Excellence.
John is married with five children and he's also a musician and songwriter.
We can tell from what the home.
So we're really excited to have you with us, John, and please.
The floor is yours.
Then deductions, Scott.
First of all, I'm very glad to be here.
I'm very glad to be able to spend some time talking to you about things that I hope will be helpful in a variety of different ways.
Let's go says My background is in.
Mental Health, nasa and chocolate.
And so I've always had kinda lots of interesting theological, practical questions about the experiences that I had.
I spent many years working alongside people living with schizophrenia and that in itself raises some really fascinating questions about autonomy.
The nature of what it means to be human being in the Mississippi confusion and various other things.
But today, I want to focus in on one aspect of psychosis.
When aspects of schizophrenia in particular, that there's kind of an iconic in relation to the way in which people think.
Mental health challenges iconic in the sense that when you think about the idea of mental illness, very often something like hearing voices comes to mind and you get the sense that someone who hears voices and so radically different from mine that we have to be pushed to someone else.
And so that process of othering goes on.
When we think about hearing voices because we can never hear voices.
So somebody who's really not, he has voices.
Now what a challenge that I went to suggest that actually people who hear voices, there's much to be learned from that experience.
The first thing to notice is that I'm using the term heating voices, other than the term hallucinations.
Now the reason for that is that hallucination is a technical psychiatric town, which is absolutely fine.
Frames, voice hitting.
The symptom of an underlying pathology.
Hidden voices capture something of the experience that people go through in relation to.
So as an explanation of a symptom, what an explanation of expedience, What if he was like in that sense.
So affect that have my slides up here like Bigger's.
The approach that I want us to be thinking about puts the scrapers a phenomenological approach.
I'm sorry, the slightest slightly off.
But phenomenology is.
The teachers WHO to look at the world.
So a phenomenological perspective said, in order to see something for what it is you to put two unsaved your biases, your prejudices are things that you think about that thing and try to look.
So in the context that today were put to one side, what we think about schizophrenia, put two and say what we think about heat and voices, and actually try to listen to the expedience.
And when we listen to the expedience, then we begin to see something different.
Nice, That's something different.
I wanted to push into this evening.
So the phenomenon of hearing voices occurs when a person hears a voice.
I've been totally wrecks tell it, but it's not hereby others random.
It's associated with people with psychotic disorder.
However, interestingly, a significant Number of healthy individuals all sort of hidden voices.
This makes surprise you, but it's estimated that between 528 %, depending on what study you look at of any general population.
He has voices that other people did not.
In other words, that are more people that hear voices and the Non-psychiatric population and that are in people who have a particular diagnosis.
So he'd invoices is actually a very common thing and is very common within religious traditions.
No Judah, Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad all heard voices.
Likewise, Winston Churchill heard voices.
Gandy heard voices.
Hello, very interesting and important figures Heard Voices.
Voice in itself is not as unusual as we think is.
A good example is Martin Luther King.
Martin Luther King at one stage was just about to give up on his work for equality and justice.
Since he had just received a terrible form called threatened themselves upset and his family.
And he had planned to go the next day to say that I'm not gonna do this anymore.
I found enough for this.
And he heard a voice that says It seems as though I could hear the quiet assurance of an inner voice saying, Martin Luther Standing.
For righteousness, justice, stand up for truth and law.
I will be with you even until the end of the world.
And that was a turning point.
Martin Luther King's life experience.
And he continued.
And we all know what the outcome of that wars in terms of.
Political social change.
So voice ceiling is not particularly unusual.
That's the key to keeping know.
That's a very interesting book by an anthropologist, Tanya Longman.
And the biggest cold when God talks back.
And she shifted anthropologists and decided to do an ethnography on the Vineyard, Christian communities in the United States.
The vineyards are charismatic Pentecostal communities where the gifts of the Spirit, or very often talked about one of the key things.
Happens in our community and a lot of committees like that.
As people hear the voice of God.
And so the idea of hearing the voice of God within these Christian communities with normal.
And she wanted to investigate why that says, how, what does it mean for Christians to say?
The hear the voice of gold.
And so it gives us a wonderful piece of qualitative research.
Then you should read this book as fascinating.
It's a big group, but it's fascinating.
To cut a big book sharp.
She comes to the conclusion that Christians develop a different theory of maned from the normal theory of mainland western culture.
So your normal theory, mainly the Western culture, assumes that your main hasn't saved your cranium.
The thoughts are contained within there and no possibility of a thought coming from, I would say that would be absolutely ridiculous.
You Theo man says your thoughts or didn't say.
But Christians developed a different way of perspective.
Through their spiritual practices.
Particularly the ignition spiritual practices at the prayer and Bible studies.
They learn to discern what it means, what words come from themselves, that own thoughts, and what words come directly.
So by absorbing themselves in this tradition, they developed a different theory of mind and begin to discern different ways of thinking about thoughts.
In that way.
It was quite fascinating really because, you know, that countercultural thinking, there's something that you see in a lot of religious Traditions.
We don't think about it.
So she ties that don't quite nicely.
But then she goes on to do a second study, which is very interesting study looking at schizophrenia psych courses across three different cultures.
Indian kosher, Chennai in India, and African culture.
And she notices something really fascinating.
She says the US patients, almost all self-identified as schizophrenics and use the diagnosis to talk about the diagnosis that condition.
The new the textbook definitions of the condition and ideas.
The patients know that hearing voices is the same that you're crazy.
So the often tried to conceal that experiences.
They dislike heat invoices and tried to deny that existence for Westerners, hearing voices is clearly indicative of insanity.
There for counties, the cultural weight of such a number.
Understanding the things within Western culture.
Schizophrenia is a highly stigmatized kosher, stigmatised experience.
Multiple negative connotations.
So when you get that diagnosis, you also take on board these negative connotations that come.
From society to society because your power of society, and everybody knows and invested comments that he'd invoices is the same that you're crazy.
So they for people within the American context process, their experiences, schizophrenia, and quite particular way.
And a profoundly negative way.
So in America, voices themselves are generally unknown.
Strangers suddenly come into your head.
So that's not normal.
All of the subjects have horrible voices telling that they were worth fleshing should die.
Sometimes, voices told them to torture others or go to war with the sufferer, should commit suicide.
Let's say there was destined for the horrible end.
One patient referred to her suicide voice.
But once you went to India, began to speak to people that they are very definite experience.
Patient's hair inaudible voice.
The voice of very often friendly, and sometimes we'll tease them.
Melt the voice was familiar to them.
So the patients had an audible gore to actually advise them to ignore the other evil voices.
Voices didn't necessarily mean that you are crazy.
Instead, the local explanation of the condition offer a fair to subjects being under spiritual attack by the Spirit.
So, which is.
To be the victim of a, which cut it lists stigma than to have a mental illness.
And people generally didn't talk about schizophrenia, so it didn't use that label at different ways of explaining it.
Some of the voices were familiar.
People, family can employers, and half the patients reported that they had primary Finally, are only positive voices telling them to do good and offering advice.
Even when individuals in extra head address of a critical voice is activated.
They also reported heating good voices that told them to ignore these negative influences.
So you can see.
There's a difference here.
And the American context, highly stigmatized.
You only have one option when you get the diagnosis of schizophrenia.
You only option you really have as you take your medication and you continue to be unless you do to that medications in your life.
So you're not your life has narrowed.
The Indian and the African context.
There are other possibilities of an explanations.
Other ways of being which didn't exclude them from community and then excludes them from the kinds of relationships that were fruitful for all human beings.
Sufficiency were diagnosed with schizophrenia.
The figure tended to hear annoying relatives.
He told them they addressed and cleaned up.
Confer can form the lion's share of forces, sometimes criticizing them, sometimes advising them, and keeping them accompany consoling or happened to motivate patients.
Some of these voices or wherever you're shooting even playful.
Letterman says that the playful voices can even become.
Imagine that a Companions.
So it's a completely different relationship that people have with their voices and their families also don't treat people with schizophrenia as if they had a soul destroying illness.
So again, it's not stigmatized.
Life possibilities and not necessarily narrow to one.
medical we have moving liquid is not true positive voices are central to the experience and the US in the US positive voices are treated as simply another symptom as an essay peripheral to the primary condition and Acura even said that their voices that kept them alive.
How are we to make sense of this isn't necessarily a very, very interesting, what conclusive within the African Indian context, people didn't cut it to have different types of opportunities when they start hearing voices.
In America, you have one at least within the Sample sheet.
You're given one opportunity.
You could always gonna be able to take your medication.
That's predicted it.
These are the countries that are other possibilities before weren't taken out of the community, for example, and put in the hospital are actually very often times kits within their family.
Secondly, there's a different city of Maine that work within literal.
Work on Christian communities at different Celia.
And same thing is here.
So for the American people who heard voices, the theory of mind that they gated them was voices shouldn't come into your head to toe.
So when you have a nice, angry, aggressive voice convention, obviously it's gonna be disturbing.
Obviously it's gonna be anxiety.
Let me even provoked you to do things that you would do otherwise.
And these other cultures, they have a different theory of main.
The main is always open mind as always part of the community ever since shared.
So it's a corporate communist thing.
The idea of being an individual person hasn't really power of many number of.
Co-chairs, ways of thinking about what it means to be a person.
And so to have your own mind is an unusual concept because it's always open.
You're open to the ancestors robots, all sorts of things.
So when the research team asked American patients, who are the voices, the voices were real.
The Christian was easy for us subjects to answer.
Recognize the distinction between real voices and voices in your head.
And partly because the man was understood as closed spaces, I'm saying having some other agents in your main was clearly a scene of illness or dysfunction.
So the sort of voices would extremely conserved.
So the something about culture that makes voices highly.
Problematic across different types of code, kosher.
And if you want to follow through in this way of thinking, there's an organization called The hearing voices network, which is the first name.
So it's across the world actually.
What they're not in any sense anti-psychotics.
I'm saying that the scientists agree at final say KG, It's just give it a different perspective, which I think is important for psychology and for everybody.
So the Hidden Voices Networks take the position that First of all, many, many people hear voices.
It's not particularly unusual, so it's the stigmatizing that sense.
But secondly, the problem with voices is not necessarily simply the fact that you have voices as the impact upon these voices on your life.
Some people live very well with voices, some people, but deeply tortured by voices.
If you're deeply torture fibrosis, then you need help.
But if you want to live well with your voices, don't necessarily need help in that way.
So the helium Voices Network helps to rethink the suggestion that hearing voices is just a symptom, recognizing that as a power.
Of people's experiences and working with it at that level.
Now I'm gonna give you an example of what that looks like and how that might be significant for the kingdom ways that we're thinking that kind of relationships we have.
But before I get into what we might call a case study.
Not quite right, but it's prepared a there's a concept that I want you to have in mind that's the concept of epistemic justice.
Epistemic and epistemology being theory of knowledge that you use to make sense of the world.
One of the things that it's very clear if you have.
A condition like schizophrenia, people stopped taking you seriously liquids.
If you have a condition like dementia or a mental health challenge of brendan, people stop taking you seriously.
They literally your opinions.
Miranda Fricker in this lovely book here called epistemic.
Epistemic injustice, develops this idea.
Of epistemic injustice.
And so an example show would get would be if you had a business meeting and there were five men in the room and one woman.
And the woman came out with a really great idea and nobody responded.
And then five minutes later, a mine comes up with the same ID and everybody thinks it's fantastic.
So she's been treated unjustly because how knowledge has been rejected or not taken seriously.
So that's what epistemic justice means.
Not taken seriously.
The knowledge that the NOR highs and at least in mental health especially important because it's very easy to discard the voices.
Of people with mental health challenges.
Epistemic injustice is rife in that sense.
So hit this edit runs Janus Schizophrenia, pepsin with schizophrenia are not credible reports of their own experience.
June should be Jane, is not a credible report of experience.
I will listen, but I won't believe and act on what she says discrimination.
So you can see stereotyping, prejudice and discrimination is central to the idea of epistemic injustice.
Derek has depression.
Depression is caused by a sender perhaps at the mnemonic, I split it shortest and you would say.
Deck is not a credible report of his speeding Institute to send or demon possession prejudice.
I will listen, but it will pay for his release, spiritual abuse.
So you can see how it runs.
Do you have a diagnosis you tried to speak in such situation, people discredit.
So I needed to keep that framework.
TED and main as we move into Alice's expedience.
So for the past few years, I've been working on a project looking at developing a phenomenological perspective on Christians in particular, who lived with serious mental health challenges.
So people live in Wisconsin.
It's a bipolar disorder or major depression.
And using that phenomenological perspective, I talked to you about earlier on, couldn't do and say my own assumptions about what the diagnosis should be and really listening to people's experience.
And so I wanted to give you a taste of the kind of things.
Discovered by looking at analysis story.
So Alice, obviously, that's not how named.
Alice was a young woman who had lived with schizophrenia since she was in her early teens.
And she had a horrible experiences.
Two voices that told it to do terrible things.
She was delusions, she was credit torture person.
So for example, the voice would tell it to go into the supermarket and just stand still.
And she said, I had to do it.
And that's a stand there forever.
And she said it was really embarrassed and associated should have really taught it difficult time in.
But then once you go into an early 20s, all of this phenomenon stopped.
The two ways in which you can interpret that.
For Alice, she says, she told me that there was a group of woman and her Szasz who had been praying fora not praying for her, released from schizophrenia, but print for her just to find peace of mind.
And she'd found healing.
So for her, it was a supernatural event that still has her psychiatrist felt that she probably being misdiagnosed somewhere in-between.
There lies the truth.
She no longer had this condition.
Now you might think that's a wonderful thing.
And at one level, it doesn't.
But as we'll see, situations more complicated.
So I wanted to take you through some of the things that Alice has been through, some of the story that she gave to me.
So began the first descriptions of voices running.
I'm sorry, but slaves, they may all be.
She says my earliest recollection of it would would have been age 12 when I was sitting out in the back garden and I had a voice that was outside of myself talking to me That wasn't very nice effect that freaked me out.
Growing up in the church that I had my initial response was, well, this is obviously just demonic.
I just need to pray more.
I assumed that it was wrong and that obviously it showed that I was going through some spiritual stuff.
We won't tell mum and dad.
And she says, And you know, it was that whole kind of guilt.
Associated with it.
But this is only spiritual.
I'm not going to talk about it.
I'm not gonna do anything.
So she comes much addition of that came the phenomenon was assumed to be demonic in some ways.
And she's taken that on and then she ascribed at stigma by spiritual stigma to ourself.
Came more annoying than anything else because they wouldn't shut up.
I just really want.
Sometimes I just really wanted to sleep and they just didn't.
It was just this constant barrage of people talking information and babies crying baby that would cry in the background.
Psychotherapists we loved to look at that when she said.
You know, my inner child is screaming for a leaf and all those kinds of things.
And then we get this epistemic justice.
This is interesting.
My life seemed like the surface of the sea and the storm.
But God was the undercurrent that was peaceful.
And so I did have some kind of recognition of what it was, but I was feeling.
But I mean, even then because everybody was telling me you nuts, you learned not to trust to not trust everything you feel.
So even the peaceful, the happier, the joy.
Well, that could be monic, that could be say, courses that could be, it's not real.
And you can see how she's applying.
Epistemic injustice to yourself in this situation, realizing that nobody's going to listen to it because it shouldn't be sitting as this particular diagnosis.
She begins to do the importance, but it should experiences that she has and she becomes and just towards yourself because people have become just towards her.
She knows there will be people assume that nothing you're feeling is real.
When that happens, even the things that you want to be real, your'e off.
No, they can't be.
But when you're looking back, you go.
That was actually it was good.
I wasn't crazy shit mentioned last but nobody believes me.
I mean, if you went into a church Oh God, speaking to me about such and such, people would go or John, the big theologian and Professor than she loves, tell us more.
But if I went into the church and even if I wasn't going through what my more difficult opinions and said, Oh God, speaking to me, they'd be like, oh dear, here's how it goes.
What does girl I've been saying to you.
So yes, it's not hard to write off people pretty quickly when it comes to go with and everything else.
Thanks for the really important taking people seriously.
But then she gets into something that's kind of an interesting.
Our voices inevitably, BI, we've already seen that tension between Africa and America.
See what she says.
Yeah, I think that one of the things I found difficult was that they the psychiatrist.
Be like, your voice is about.
So we're going to give you medication to get rid of your voices, but I'm saying yes, sometimes in that voice is a terrible.
But all the voices about come and keep the nice ones.
And so I act understand phi a lot of people don't take their medication because actually some things a lot harder to be with your friends and to be with your enemy.
It's better to have them all than to have none.
What they don't take into account is that this is somebody's narrative.
And these are characters in the narrative.
And you can't just like taking away from your family, you know, it's like you can't do that and not have any repercussions of that.
And one of the Fascinating things for Alice was one of our first experiences after the voice he said stopped and moved on and I said What She was lonely.
So for so long she had been served, but as cacophony of voices, another, there was nothing.
And she had had even, even though it was horrible, to have something better than to have nothing.
And so moving on.
Then God say something really interesting.
One of the big things I found really hard when I first was healed.
Was that I was really lonely.
It was suddenly really quiet and I didn't have anyone to talk to you in the middle of them.
And so it was really bad.
I went through the whole grieving process for things for people that weren't real.
Push was really difficult because who do you go to for that?
Hey, I'm really grieving over a friend that never really existed.
Laughs his Kandahar.
And she talked about one of our voices that was supportive to when all these other voices were horrible.
This voice would be supportive.
And she had a name for it and she had a relationship with it.
Now, when they were taken away.
She had then had to explain to people or not to explain to people.
But you have to come to terms with the fact that she was grieving for somebody that never existed, and she was aware that that's the case.
But she knew that she couldn't tell other people because if she says it's other people and grieving because for somebody that never existed, they think oh, she's getting a psychotic.
So she had to work through a grief and it was a genuine grief on a room.
And essential because sometimes when you speak to people who live with psychosis, they'll tell me something very similar about the way that medication something's functions in that way.
It pushes down the voices and it controls.
The symptoms, does give a great deal of reliefs.
But sometimes it's accompanied by loneliness because sometimes people do relate to their voices and with a positive as well as obviously reads that are negative.
I make people when I was in hospital and a love of them in their sig moments.
And you can call.
You can always tell when someone is having a lucid moment.
We talked about how lonely they were, and how much their medication made them feel so isolated and lonely.
Unless like, if you're used to years of being surrounded to take away the community is crazy.
I just it doesn't actually address what that community.
Therefore, in the first place now, the point here is that medication is bad.
Absolutely wouldn't say that.
The point is that when we give medication, we've got to realize that there are actually religious and emotional, say the fix if you like, that, we can very easily miss.
For not concentrating on the lived experience of the person, as well as the material, as well as the symptoms that we're trying to treat.
This is just a little bit of the passionate I mentioned.
The voice had befriended.
Ion, wasn't snapshot person.
To me, even though she wasn't a person.
And an issue wasn't not to talk talked out in public, but she was someone I could convey that fading and talk to.
She was a person who was always there when I was upset.
She was probably the biggest loss to me.
She wasn't there after that.
I had to do alone.
I had to figure out how to do.
DO life alone.
I mean, she wasn't always the best influenced, you know, but she was there a Nash really hard to explain.
That must be really hard to explain.
So coming to the conclusion of fundament, Romans 122, possible.
I'll talk a bit.
The idea of renewing your main, but what he means is too low the things that you know about your tradition to change the way that you see the world, to take the stool, not at service that are given to you and look out in the world.
Nothing much changes there.
You see it definitely because you're making this renewed.
And I think it's the same thing, service.
Kinda thing that we need to think of it in relation to mental health to take seriously the stories that we know that sort of come to us for medicine and psychology, but also to take seriously the stories that come from people's opinions until level remains to be renewed and to see things definitely, when we see things differently, we can.
One of the things that we've noticed even in the short period of time we've been talking about it as one level, people have pathological conditions that cause.
Of course, courses.
But sometimes our coaches are pathogenic, sometimes the way that we.
Talk about people with the way that language that we use, the way that we stigmatize, nailing it people makes an already difficult situation even worse.
And Tanya lumens resets it's interesting because it says some coaches can be framed, things can be pathogenic and cause pathology.
Other cultures can be.
More open to healing.
And we'll look into compassion.
And that's why the issue of language is very important, because the way that we talk about things articulates what we think we see, and what we think we see.
The tellers who will respond to what we think we see.
So the language is.
So using language for example, of heat and voices is important because it takes seriously the expedience of people and hallucinations is important because if you're doing research, if you're looking at things in particular ways, that's important.
But for those of us who are no clinicians.
Who just simply wanted to be alongside the people.
He'd invoices draws attention to the importance of just 11 with people and listen to what they're seeing directly.
The question, but the morning I'll give that.
I missed for the moment.
Only to say that sometimes the way in which we use a faith tradition can be highly problematic for people living with mental health challenges and you can see that with Alice when at the beginning point of her experience of hearing voices, she herself.
Automatically scraped out to the morning because she knew that within our community that would be the demoting procedures, the body.
But what I would say to you if if ever you have a very interesting questions.
But thinking about the way in which the New Testament talks about the demonic, it's a couple of things.
First of all.
Most of the demon positions that you see in the New Testament are actually physical.
And we're very realist when somebody has a sore backers, but some kind of physical barrier for us to say what must be the demonic.
So why do we do it when it comes to people?
Millions in that sense?
And secondly, if you take.
The way in which professionals, what diagnosis, diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorder.
If you take the criterion, let's leave them there for example, for schizophrenia.
And please against anybody in the Gospels.
It's different thing.
It's a different thing good on.
So you have to.
You ask yourself, why is it that we go in that direction?
Scripture seems to tell us not to go in that direction.
And one of the reasons is that we tend to take an understanding is that the mnemonic more from a Hollywood than from Jerusalem.
And when we do that, then people began to suffer.
Okay, two more points before I finish.
First one is the issue of generosity.
One of the things that particularly for highly stigmatized conditions like schizophrenia.
One of the things that we discovered very quickly is that people are not generous towards.
People who lived with severe mental health challenges.
People that are reluctant to give them the gift of friendship, reluctant to give them a gift of value, tend to stigmatize and category.
So I think one of the things that we should really all be thinking about it for taking issues or mental health seriously is to be.
Generous without relationships, to be generous with loving, compassionate, and to be generalists.
And the way that we are with one another.
Since show that no matter what people somebody's going through, that, the excluded from your community, from your life.
And the second thing is epistemic generosity.
Instead of assuming that everything that somebody's.
Rubbish and somebody says, it's to do with the pathology.
Time listening, because people always have something to see in the midst of the confusion.
And we've seen that with order unusual asked her perspective is she's got something to say.
Something for us to learn from.
So I suggest if what we need to think about developing holy alliances, working with mental health professionals, working with religious communities, working with groups.
And we can hold together both biological, medical dimensions of mental health.
And these other lived experiences that are so important for quality of life and for understanding and come into a place of relationship with people and not walks yourself.
As a profoundly important aspect of spirit.
And so really, all I wanted to talk to you about it, just know I think I've given you enough information.
But the one thing I want you just to think about it as people have people.
The fact that you have a mental health challenge means that you have maybe see the world differently, yet, certain things written me to understand.
Be adjusted all of us need help.
But the bottom line is, people are people.
And we wrote on this place together.
And when we get to that space, we can see that even if we're dealing with something that's difficult as schizophrenia can be, as you can see, someone as a person to begin with before we do.
They also think of the nails.
Then that changes our response.
And if we change our response, and the possibility of friendship, hospitality, generosity, and community becomes a reality.
So thank you for, thank you for listening.
Thank you so much.
And this was really given us a lot, I think to be thinking about.
I want to just say a word of thanks to the alumni relations office for posting this virtual